My concerns about the plugin community.

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DelTaco24
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#81

Post by DelTaco24 »

The26 wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 11:56
CommanderABab wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 09:20
Don't expect any more approvals from me this month. (As you don't seem to appreciate simple well shaded and shadowed buildings that I approve.) (They might need details, but they look fine otherwise)
I don't want to insult you, but honestly, some stuff that gets approved doesn't seem "well shaded", like this image.png
This building doesn't seem to have shadows... image.png
Or this one, which just looks like it's made of cardboard. Has missing shadows, and aren't there any problems with copyright regarding the logo? image.png
Now I know that there's a chance that you weren't the one approving these plugins, but they don't feel like "well shaded and shadowed buildings". These are just a few examples and there are many more plugins, including ones from the same (unmentioned) creators that pretty much don't comply to what you said.
Also, acting like shading is the most important thing and is the only thing that matters? I do agree that buildings having proper shading is a key feature and without it buildings look like crap, but I don’t think it is the only thing that should matter in terms of quality. In my opinion the actual texturing of the asset is more important, as a building could be ‘well shaded’ but still look bad if it’s not also well textured. Properly shading a building doesn’t take all that much effort, especially if it’s not well textured, just a pick a darker variant of the same color for the shaded side, or just go over the shaded with translucent black paint, doesn’t take much to achieve. So because it’s not hard to do at all, a bad looking building can still be ‘well shaded’. Good shading and texturing, plus scaling all have to work together for the best looking result, it can’t just be one of these components on its own.

Here’s an example of a ‘well shaded’ but not well textured building:
C54617EB-6683-4164-B19C-46372BE122B0.jpeg
Yes, maybe it’s ‘well shaded’ but is it well textured? Well I don’t know about you but I don’t think so. Those have little effort put into them, just because they’re properly shaded doesn’t exactly make them of “good quality.” In my opinion they’re not plugin store worthy at all, they’re bright, noiseless/textureless, and just look ugly and cartoonish. I don’t think many people would actually want to have their in their cities. After all the plugin store rules say that buildings shouldn’t stand out from the vanilla game and look bright and abstract, and that is exactly what these buildings are. They’d stick out in your city like a sore thumb, they’re absolute eyesores. The plugin store rules also say that plugins shouldn’t look as if they were thrown together in 5 minutes, yet there a many buildings currently on the store that look as if they were, indeed, tossed together in 5 minutes, probably just so the uploader could earn some gems off of them.

An example of a 5 min plugin:
ABE9A22C-16E8-480B-A469-B8F8004D6B1E.jpeg
ABE9A22C-16E8-480B-A469-B8F8004D6B1E.jpeg (47.94 KiB) Viewed 27336 times
No effort at all.

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HashSlingingSlasher6
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#82

Post by HashSlingingSlasher6 »

@Naufhal Do you know what he's talking about?

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#83

Post by Naufhal »

yes

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The26
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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#84

Post by The26 »

I'm gonna skim through the Store's rules for a bit, specifically the ones in Quality...
TheoTown wrote:
17 Dec 2018, 18:44
Quality
Plugins should have a creative part in them, for example graphics that aren't part of the game yet. Abstract/empty plugins typically aren't allowed. For example a null/nothingness plugin isn't ok. As a rule of thumb: A plugin shouldn't look as if you could put it together within 5 minutes.
Yet it looks like they don't really care about this rule, I've seen a bunch of plugins that look like they were made in 5 minutes. Examples? Sure.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
image.png (15.85 KiB) Viewed 27279 times
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
image.png (61.7 KiB) Viewed 27279 times
These plugins look like someone tried to follow some guide from 5-Minute-Crafts because they thought it'd be very quick to make. Unfortunately, graphics happen to actually be the hardest part of making plugins. I don't understand why they're so scared of the JSON part.
TheoTown wrote:
17 Dec 2018, 18:44
Low quality plugins can be posted, but multiple postings of low quality plugins (which looks as if you're uploading them for the sole purpose of earning diamonds) could be punished.
sigh... These few plugins are all from the same creator.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author. Plugin's name is included in the image, but I blurred it out.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author. Plugin's name is included in the image, but I blurred it out.
image.png (51.98 KiB) Viewed 27279 times
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author. Plugin's name is included in the image, but I blurred it out.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author. Plugin's name is included in the image, but I blurred it out.
image.png (48.24 KiB) Viewed 27279 times
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
image.png (23.33 KiB) Viewed 27279 times
There are lots and lots of these plugins all by the same creator. Why doesn't he just, oh, I don't know, put it all in one pack and then everyone would be happy? Oh, hang on... perhaps he needs diamonds? sigh...
TheoTown wrote:
17 Dec 2018, 18:44
The plugin clearly shows little to no creativity, created for quantity instead of quality.
Same as the last point. Also happens to be one of the points I mentioned. Perhaps this isn't being enforced then?
TheoTown wrote:
17 Dec 2018, 18:44
It's graphics doesn't match to TheoTown's graphics at all or it's graphics stand out.
Please keep in mind that all of the plugins I'm showing were approved. They might've been disapproved later on, but the focus is that these plugins were approved.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
image.png (41.02 KiB) Viewed 27279 times
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
image.png (136.27 KiB) Viewed 27279 times
TheoTown wrote:
17 Dec 2018, 18:44
It has a solely abstract meaning or is basically a "copy and paste" of a picture, with no effort required other than adding it into the game. For instance, recoloured (not reworked) in-game buildings fall under this clause.
So, here are a few modified versions of the sample house plugin that somehow got accepted into the Plugin Store.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
image.png (36.44 KiB) Viewed 27279 times
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
I won't reveal the plugin's name and author.
image.png (78.01 KiB) Viewed 27279 times
TheoTown wrote:
17 Dec 2018, 18:44
It's main purpose is to circumvent the monetization of the game. Plugin support was added with the intention to allow plugins to co-exist with in-game contents. Plugins that threaten this co-existence may not be uploaded to the Plugin Store.
Fortunately, I don't see any offenders of this rule. If I had to guess, it's probably because the people making more technical plugins are way smarter than a typical new plugin creator nowadays and are fully aware that breaking such rules will make them banned.

In general, I feel like the rules should be rewritten a bit, there are quite a few grammatical errors sprinkled in there, like constant misuse of "it's" and "its", "graphics doesn't (should be don't because it's plural) match to TheoTown's graphics..." and a few others.

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#85

Post by Pwyll »

CommanderABab wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 09:20
Don't expect any more approvals from me this month. (As you don't seem to appreciate simple well shaded and shadowed buildings that I approve.) (They might need details, but they look fine otherwise)
Shadows are not the most important thing!

Shadows should not be the only reason why you're approving a plugin. It's like selling only orange tangerines, no matter if they're rotten or not.
Would you approve a plugin with one single building that costs 100 diamonds with no textures at all and wrong perspectives? Even if it has right shadows? No, right?

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#86

Post by The26 »

KxlihLR_ wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 21:12
CommanderABab wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 09:20
Don't expect any more approvals from me this month. (As you don't seem to appreciate simple well shaded and shadowed buildings that I approve.) (They might need details, but they look fine otherwise)
Shadows are not the most important thing!

Shadows should not be the only reason why you're approving a plugin. It's like selling only orange tangerines, no matter if they're rotten or not.
Would you approve a plugin with one single building that costs 100 diamonds with no textures at all and wrong perspectives? Even if it has right shadows? No, right?
I like your analogy.

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#87

Post by erionit »

The26 wrote:
24 Jul 2022, 11:08
About vonark, I am aware that he was banned. I'm still saying that he "left the community" but apparently he still makes plugins, just for an (unfortunately) smaller audience. I wish he was at least allowed to upload plugins to the plugin store...
for the CIS community, the ban of vonark was a big blow, since he has been making plugins for about a year, already making plugins at the pro level. as for the new players (of which I am one), I agree with the opinion about the introduction of stricter rules for the plugin store, and accept any on the forum. and it is very sad that it is impossible to make the cost of the plugin 0. to begin with, of course, diamonds are still useful for downloading plugins (for previews), but it would be good if the maximum number of diamonds received on one account was, for example, 10000.

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#88

Post by erionit »

it's also strange that the first plugins (including mine) were downloaded by someone

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#89

Post by DelTaco24 »

KxlihLR_ wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 21:12
CommanderABab wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 09:20
Don't expect any more approvals from me this month. (As you don't seem to appreciate simple well shaded and shadowed buildings that I approve.) (They might need details, but they look fine otherwise)
Shadows are not the most important thing!

Shadows should not be the only reason why you're approving a plugin. It's like selling only orange tangerines, no matter if they're rotten or not.
Would you approve a plugin with one single building that costs 100 diamonds with no textures at all and wrong perspectives? Even if it has right shadows? No, right?
He’s also saying that he thinks we should be more appreciative of the fact he finds an excuse to approve as many submissions as possible? Uhh, no, that’s literally one of the things this thread is about, that the moderators should favor quality over quantity. We don’t need to have 3 new plugins on the store every day, what we really need is more well made, high quality plugins and encourage higher quality on the store itself. Lower quality plugins can still be uploaded on the forums after all, and that’s what newbies should be encouraged to do when they’re starting out (like I said in a previous comment). As for the store, I’d personally rather have let’s say 30 mostly well made, high quality and good looking plugins per month rather than 90 mostly crappy ones. Just because a plugin has correct shading shouldn’t constitute it as a “good” plugin. Like I said, properly shading a building doesn’t take much effort to do. But there’s the problem, the bar has been set so low and (most) of the moderators have very low standards as what they’d consider a “good” plugin. Much lower than what an average player would consider “good”, because how often do you see some of the plugins listed above appear in gallery screenshots? Well idk about you, but I can’t remember the last time I saw one in a screenshot, especially one of a well built city. Most people who download it probably just test it out, realize it sucks, delete it and never touch it again. So I think it’s safe to say shading is not how most people would define a ‘good plugin’, myself included. This moderator has just proved that he favors quantity over quality, he thinks “the more the merrier”, but I disagree. The plugin store needs much higher standards (especially if it’s gonna be monetized), and lower quality plugins like those listed above can be welcome on the forums showcase, but not the plugin store.

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#90

Post by Guest »

What if a plugin got approved in the plugin store in the first place but users who downloaded it reported lag or crashes or any other unintentional behaviour or the developer finds malicious code within the plugin? (and the rules itself doesn't mention about it)

Someone reported game being crashed on bugs-n-crashes channel on discord and JustAnyone told him to remove some plugin which he considers is a malware. (I can't reveal the plugin name or author)

Also I don't know why corrupt plugin store moderators neither care about the quality nor downloaded the plugin file and tested it and they just approve the plugin to the store anyway
Last edited by Guest on 27 Jul 2022, 02:00, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#91

Post by PenangLion1016 »

I don't understand the point of limiting plugin approvals to several users within the community that has no experience of actually making a plugin that looks good. No offense, Abab, you're talented when it comes to the programming aspect of the game, but I find it hard to get convinced of certain choices in approval, mostly aesthetics.
We should import a committee of users who are well known of making high quality plugins and ask them to evaluate the plugin. It's not that hard, this plan has always been in the talks even before the market was released.

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#92

Post by The26 »

CommanderABab wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 09:20
...
Do not spam packs.
...
I feel like packs should be encouraged. Depends on how big though, if they're only like 2 or 3 buildings or vehicles then no, they're very small and not worth your diamonds. It's still better to give people a choice though. I feel like there's a very hard-to-find balance between the number of buildings, the effort to make them, and their size. If there's a vehicle pack, there definitely should be a lot of vehicles. Skyscraper pack? Well, it's better to put only 1-3 of them in one pack since they're big, they'll take up plugin texture space and it won't be nice once it all fills up. Then it's better to give people a choice. When it's smaller buildings, you can go with packs of 4-10 buildings, but once again, it depends on the size and effort of them. But my main point is that there should be more packs for vehicles and small buildings.

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#93

Post by Imran M »

The26 wrote:
25 Jul 2022, 19:01
Imran M wrote:
25 Jul 2022, 18:29
PenangLion1016 wrote:
25 Jul 2022, 07:58


No? You were too late. First gens were already in the business in 2016. I'm not even in the first gen, but the second.
Oh!! So like Mdk! But do i get to be a part of second gen..?
I'd say 3rd or 4th gen. Probably 3rd though.
Aw man, though at least that's pretty close to 2nd!

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#94

Post by Memebooms »

PenangLion1016 wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 08:46
I don't understand the point of limiting plugin approvals to several users within the community that has no experience of actually making a plugin that looks good. No offense, Abab, you're talented when it comes to the programming aspect of the game, but I find it hard to get convinced of certain choices in approval, mostly aesthetics.
We should import a committee of users who are well known of making high quality plugins and ask them to evaluate the plugin. It's not that hard, this plan has always been in the talks even before the market was released.
Woah it's been a long time
Anyway I like your plugins

Could you remaster all of your plugins into newer ones or make Malaysian skyscrapers or buildings pls? :)

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#95

Post by DelTaco24 »

The26 wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 13:58
CommanderABab wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 09:20
...
Do not spam packs.
...
I feel like packs should be encouraged. Depends on how big though, if they're only like 2 or 3 buildings or vehicles then no, they're very small and not worth your diamonds. It's still better to give people a choice though. I feel like there's a very hard-to-find balance between the number of buildings, the effort to make them, and their size. If there's a vehicle pack, there definitely should be a lot of vehicles. Skyscraper pack? Well, it's better to put only 1-3 of them in one pack since they're big, they'll take up plugin texture space and it won't be nice once it all fills up. Then it's better to give people a choice. When it's smaller buildings, you can go with packs of 4-10 buildings, but once again, it depends on the size and effort of them. But my main point is that there should be more packs for vehicles and small buildings.
I do agree with that, it’s better when people upload smaller items in larger packs. However what that might’ve been referring to when he said “do not spam packs” was more low effort things like flags and planes. Flags and planes are in my opinion the worst offenders when it comes to spammy, low effort, unoriginal, for-profit plugins. People who are bad at making plugins and are just doing it for the gems often end up resorting to planes and flags as their main form of plugins as they take no effort to make. A perfect example of this is one person in particular, I’ll just say that his username starts with C and ends with 6. His saga with low quality plugins happened 2 years ago and he was one of the first people who frequently uploaded plugins that I personally got annoyed by. He started off by making the typical kind of newbie plugins, basic looking, poorly textured, overly saturated looking buildings. After a few months of doing that with little to no improvement, he just dropped the ball completely and started doing you guessed it, planes and flags instead. That’s when he started to bother me personally. For a good while he’d upload a low quality plane plugin, either in a small pack of 3 or less, or individually, and he would upload one almost every single day, and they’d get the green light every single time. I got so tired of seeing yet another mediocre plane plugin from him, yawn. Plus the fact he uploaded everything individually when it could’ve easily all be made into one large pack made it appear as if he just wanted to earn some gems. Other symptoms of “plugins for profit” he showed was rushing through creation and refusing to improve (or begging other people to renovate his plugins for him). He just stopped trying.

Returning to my point against planes and flags, all that’s required to make your average plane or flag plugin is just filling out a template. Just copy and paste a flag or plane from the world texture and recolor it how you want and you’re pretty much done. No effort required at all, and while the texture is technically “high quality” by definition, I would not consider it high quality because they didn’t actually draw the flagpole/plane themselves. All they did was slap their own flag/logo on it. Another thing I’ve noticed about planes and flags is that the few actual good quality ones are uploaded in much larger packs, while the crappy ones are uploaded in tiny packs (3 or less), or just straight up individually, and I can already guess as to why. The people making the crappy ones are just trying to milk the monetization with the least amount of effort possible, and flags/planes are often the answer. Because they can be made in great amounts very quickly and will unfortunately most likely get approved. Even if they weren’t bad quality it would still be quite pointless in many cases as there’s other plugins of pretty much the same thing already existing. That’s another reason I loath flags and planes, their shear repetitiveness and unoriginality.

In conclusion, I personally think the moderators should be much less accepting flags and planes on the store unless they are actually original (by that I mean not copied and pasted), of higher quality and uploaded in much, much larger packs. And tell the authors of the lower quality less original ones to upload on the forums instead. In my opinion flags, planes and sample houses are the worst type of plugin, even a low quality (but original) building is better than that obnoxiously repetitive crap. At least a low quality building has some effort and creativity put into it, unlike a copied and pasted flag or plane.

Yes, I probably could’ve made this shorter…

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#96

Post by Lobby »

Sorry to hear that you are unhappy. We admit that enforcing the rules in a consistent matter is hard and that we can improve on that. On the other hand, I want to emphasize on that the "price" for plugins is in place to finance the store and things around it (including adding new features for plugins) rather than for the plugins themselves. So from a technical standpoint the quality of a plugin doesn't matter and people can use the preview and ratings to get an impression of whether they are willing to acquire it. There is zero obligation to download a plugin which you do not like. However, it does not mean that there are no players that would install it for their cities. You can purchase a lot of good, but also bad items on a site like Amazon. In the end, the player decides what they download, not a third party. If they like it, they’ll grab it.

Regardless, if a plugin creator continues the trend of not improving or continuing to submit low quality or effort content, we may consider to suspend the monetization of the aforementioned content. Moreover, if plugin creators act in bad faith, we have the tools to suspend and or disable their plugins and remove the permission to post content to the plugin store at all.

Going forward, we will adjust the plugin store rules and implement a store category for the best rated plugins. In addition, a warning will be displayed to the player for plugins with a small number of downloads or ratings.

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#97

Post by Mako1137 »

Die tweede wat ek ontmoet het, die tweede sterf ek

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#98

Post by The26 »

DelTaco24 wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 16:03
The26 wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 13:58
CommanderABab wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 09:20
...
Do not spam packs.
...
I feel like packs should be encouraged. Depends on how big though, if they're only like 2 or 3 buildings or vehicles then no, they're very small and not worth your diamonds. It's still better to give people a choice though. I feel like there's a very hard-to-find balance between the number of buildings, the effort to make them, and their size. If there's a vehicle pack, there definitely should be a lot of vehicles. Skyscraper pack? Well, it's better to put only 1-3 of them in one pack since they're big, they'll take up plugin texture space and it won't be nice once it all fills up. Then it's better to give people a choice. When it's smaller buildings, you can go with packs of 4-10 buildings, but once again, it depends on the size and effort of them. But my main point is that there should be more packs for vehicles and small buildings.
Long quote.
I despise any flag plugins, except Quin's. I find them extremely unoriginal and repetitive. The worst thing is people don't even like to use the templates, they create their own horribly shaded comically oversized flags.

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#99

Post by The26 »

Lobby wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 18:28
Sorry to hear that you are unhappy. We admit that enforcing the rules in a consistent matter is hard and that we can improve on that. On the other hand, I want to emphasize on that the "price" for plugins is in place to finance the store and things around it (including adding new features for plugins) rather than for the plugins themselves. So from a technical standpoint the quality of a plugin doesn't matter and people can use the preview and ratings to get an impression of whether they are willing to acquire it. There is zero obligation to download a plugin which you do not like. However, it does not mean that there are no players that would install it for their cities. You can purchase a lot of good, but also bad items on a site like Amazon. In the end, the player decides what they download, not a third party. If they like it, they’ll grab it.

Regardless, if a plugin creator continues the trend of not improving or continuing to submit low quality or effort content, we may consider to suspend the monetization of the aforementioned content. Moreover, if plugin creators act in bad faith, we have the tools to suspend and or disable their plugins and remove the permission to post content to the plugin store at all.

Going forward, we will adjust the plugin store rules and implement a store category for the best rated plugins. In addition, a warning will be displayed to the player for plugins with a small number of downloads or ratings.
That is great to hear. Thank you very much for actually noticing and taking things into your hands! It's good to see that you are taking action and not just ignoring what we have to say and what we'd like to change. Going to be honest, I do sometimes feel that we criticize the new plugins too much, but it gets annoying when no high rank takes action during repeated offense.

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Re: My concerns about the plugin community.

#100

Post by DelTaco24 »

The26 wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 19:04
DelTaco24 wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 16:03
The26 wrote:
27 Jul 2022, 13:58

I feel like packs should be encouraged. Depends on how big though, if they're only like 2 or 3 buildings or vehicles then no, they're very small and not worth your diamonds. It's still better to give people a choice though. I feel like there's a very hard-to-find balance between the number of buildings, the effort to make them, and their size. If there's a vehicle pack, there definitely should be a lot of vehicles. Skyscraper pack? Well, it's better to put only 1-3 of them in one pack since they're big, they'll take up plugin texture space and it won't be nice once it all fills up. Then it's better to give people a choice. When it's smaller buildings, you can go with packs of 4-10 buildings, but once again, it depends on the size and effort of them. But my main point is that there should be more packs for vehicles and small buildings.
Long quote.
I despise any flag plugins, except Quin's. I find them extremely unoriginal and repetitive. The worst thing is people don't even like to use the templates, they create their own horribly shaded comically oversized flags.
If they don’t use a template and try to do their own, 98% of the time it just comes out much worse. It’s actually better to just use a template, but either way, shouldn’t be approved on the store. Also, one more thing I’ll add to my rant against flag and plane plugins is that, these low quality, singular flag and plane plugins are almost only ever submitted exclusively to the store and rarely uploaded on the forums showcase, right? So, because the store is monetized and the showcase is not, plus the lack of quality and repetitiveness… That can only mean one thing, right?
:bt

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